<<Click To Listen – Photography Roundtable #8 PPS#48
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Gavin Seim ~ Seim Photography – Effects & Presets
Kerry Garrison ~ Camera Dojo – L7 Studios
Dennis Zerwas ~ DZ Photography
Show notes…
Episode Forum Discussion
Nikon launches the D700, the Sb900 flash, and two new lenses.
A cool article about sharpening in Photoshop
What brides and clients think of photo websites.
Is NILMDTS (Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep) doing things right? (@27:10)
The Hassleblad H3d has 50mp. A nice camera.
Boda Bag. Looks interesting, but is it all that great?
. Looks interesting, but is it all that great?Tamrac Modular Accessory Belt is what Gavin uses to carry gear during shoots. He just attaches MAS pouches to it.
Dynamic Photo HDR. A PC only HDR program that looks pretty cool.
Kerry has been reviewing out the Photo Basics Strobe Lights. from photobasics.net
Ken Rockwell has articles on setting up your camera.
Rocket Air for cleaning sensors.
Visable Dust is a popular cleaner for heavy duty cleaning.
Picks of the week.
Kerry Likes the Black Rapid R Strap.
Dennis says Phanfare is now his anti-pick because they have taken away features.
Smugmug is his new most favored one.
Gavin is excited about his MP3 Tape
Hi Gavin . . .
Appreciated the show but must disagree about you comments regarding Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep . . .
The $25.00 “fee” is voluntary along with all other aspects of this organization. If someone cannot afford this they simply notify the organization and POOF, it’s gone . . . I gladly give the 25.00 ( I can afford that donation) as it not only shows my commitment but confirms my belief that this is a worthy organization to belong to and support. If you want to know where the money goes, how it is spent, you can find that information by contacting the NILMDTS headquarters. That way the next time that you speak about the organization you will actually have some real, solid financial information to back up your speculations about how the money is spent.
This is a totally FREE service that is provided to the families that call us. The donation that the photographers give allows this organization to provide training (which is EXTREMELY helpful) that helps prepare said photographers as they deal with this type of extremely emotional session. But again, if a photographer cannot afford this then all they need do is say so. This is an organization filled with people that are willing to pay this fee and do what you admit you are not able to do . . . if we are not complaining about this fee, why are you?
Again, if you have questions about how and where the money is spent, please contact the home office of NILMDTS. It might help allay your concerns about why this membership fee is charged.
Thanks!
Vicki Zoller
Affiliate Photographer with NILMDTS
(AND I have music on my website :mrgreen:)
Hi Gavin,
I just wanted to address your concerns about the annual donation that NILMDTS asks of it’s members.
I have been a member for 2 years and NILMDTS has always asked for a $25 donation to help offset some of the costs of the foundation. I’ll admit that when I first joined, I thought it was a bit weird that a organization comprised of volunteers was asking it’s members to pay a $25 annual donation. But, once I became more involved in the organization, I realized how naive I had been.
Unfortunately, running a non-profit organization is not free. There are so many more costs than I had realized in my naivety…. for it to truly be a successful organization and serve the families. This past year, NILMDTS had to hire an executive director and some support staff because running the organization, answering questions and fielding calls, solving disagreements, processing applications, working with media, shipping materials out etc. is a full-time job, and then some. And, when you have staff, you need to have somewhere to put them, so you have rent and equipment costs. NILMDTS also has website costs, tradeshow displays, and the printing cost of the training manual.
Now, you’re right…. NILMDTS does not have to have all of these things. They could cut costs…. but the goal is to be a professional organization and to serve as many families, as possible. If they did not have and provide tradeshow displays, they would not recruit as many photographers or educate as many families. Sure, NILMDTS could have provided the training manual via pdf, as suggested, and may in the future… I don’t know. But, I really believe that it is FAR more effective and utilized in the printed format. Photographers have a lot of demands on their time, and the electronic format would be treated like lots of e-mails…. it would be put on the back-burner… something they would get to later when they had time to look it over. They would have good intentions, but never get to it. Having a tangible, physical manual means that it is more likely to get used and a lot of time will be saved for the staff because the photographers will have reviewed the manual and had many questions answered. I, for one, am extremely grateful that NILMDTS finally was able to print and send out the manuals, because I have spent hundreds of dollars of my own money in the past two years mailing out packets and information to support NILMDTS photographers in my state, because they were not utilizing the forum or reviewing the electronic versions that I was sending them. I know a lot of other volunteer Area Coordinators were doing the same thing.
Finally, the epiphany that I realized quite early on about paying the donation is that it is actually a great deal! NILMDTS photographers have access to a private photographers forum. Now, if you have ever been a member of any professional photographers forums, you know that they usually cost hundreds of dollars in annual dues to access them. We have access to a huge, professional photographers forum with a wealth of resources, help, and information for only $25!
There are many volunteer service organizations that require their members to pay membership dues. (The rotary club, etc.) This is nothing new and is logical because these organizations have to have some form of regular “income” or grants to support the services they provide.
As Vicki stated above, many photographers receive annual donation waivers…. it is voluntary. But, I agree with Kerry…. I think it encourages a little more accountability and commitment, so I’m all for it. In fact, I would pay more!
Tasha Nicholls
Oregon Volunteer NILMDTS Coordinator
Running a charity is alot of hard work. Many of the charities are ran by volunteers and receive few donations. To be able to keep a 24 hour active forum and website running successfully sometimes we have to ask for donations. This is all the small 25.00 a year is, is a donation each joining volunteer can pay if they can.
NILMDTS literally helps THOUSANDS of families every single year. If you have ever lost a baby and your whole world gets ripped apart and someone offered this beautiful way of you remembering your angel that you will never see again. You would understand just how important the work of NILMDTS is.
This meager amount of money is not even worth arguing over. It helps the charity keep a professional communication with the public, the families and the volunteers.
With what they offer, 25.00 minor.
Sincerely,
Mary Glynn
HAIN Founder
I’m glad to see discussion on this. My concern is not that they ask for a donation. That’s what they should do. When I was notified of the donation however I did not see it as optional. I have no problem helping out with some money, as long as their not requiring it.
A donation is optional. As long as they make it totally optional it’s a donation. When it’s required it becomes a membership fee to volunteer. Perhaps NILMDTS should be more clear that people do not have to pay, and simply ask them. That would make myself, and a lot of other a lot more comfortable.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding how they approach it! If so please let me know.
This seems to be a hot topic, so we’ll bring it up on the next RT. If am official from the organization wants to explain things I totally open to it.
Gavin Seim
Gavin,
When our Executive Director came on board, one of the things that was accomplished was the creation and implementation of a new database of photographers. In order to be as economical as possible, the database was set-up so that the annual donation notices were sent out automatically and the public database updated, accordingly. This has saved a ton of man hours in doing everything manually. The annual donation is strongly recommended, because the organization really needs a form of donations that they can rely on to help pay some of the costs of business.
Here is the information about the annual donation, in the forum of a Frequently Asked Question, directly available from the Training Manual:
* Q: I am happy to volunteer my services, however I am unable to make the $25 annual donation.
A: We certainly thank the many members who assist NILMDTS by paying the annual donation, however we understand not everyone is able to pay the fee. The membership donation fee helps pay in part for the following:
* Maintenance of the Photographer and Family Forums. Many of you visit the Forum regularly and have received a great amount of good advice and support from your fellow photographers To maintain our website and the web based photographer database To offset the cost of mailing brochures, lanyards and other materials when you request them
* To ensure we have the manpower available in our offices to respond quickly and accurately to your needs
* To aid in the recruitment of other photographers who would like to be a part of NILMDTS To help with the publication and distribution of our training manual
If you are not able to pay the fee, we simply ask that you send an e-mail with the subject line WAIVER REQUEST to headquarters@nilmdts.org with your name and NILMDTS account #.
Explain your point of why you would try and ruin the reputation of a charity because you are upset by a 25.00 fee. 😕 Little confused.
Hello Gavin,
The way the donation request wording is stated, is we are requesting a donation of $25.00 to help insure that NILMDTS is able to provide the needed services to both our members and the families we serve. However, if for any reason this fee needs to be waived it is done with no questions asked. Once the donation is made, or the donation is waived the member is in good standing. As was mentioned this has also helped eliminate people who do not really serve the families.
Currently we have almost 6000 members. Out of those members, we have almost 5000 that are active. Active means that they have made a donation and are listed on the site as available to provide services to families. The other 1000 or so, are not listed as active. They may not wish to serve, may not have made a donation or had their donation waived or they may be taking a leave due to pregnancy, medical need or military service.
I would love to talk to you about NILMDTS, our funding and I could answer any other questions that you have. You have such a wonderful opportunity here to make a difference in so many peoples lives. We would love provide you with information that might help you share our mission, Just imagine how many hundred of families would be served if just a few of your audience members joined our cause.
I look forward to speaking with you in person.
With warm regard,
Sandy Puc’
Co-Founder NILMDTS
Gavin, perhaps you could become a member of NILMDTS.
I would be happy to chip in to help pay for your donation.
Jim Devinney
Affiliate Photographer with NILMDTS
Hi Gavin,
I joined NILMDTS a few months ago. When I submitted my application it clearly stated that the $25 was a donation and if you found this was a hardship this was easily waived.
I feel you should do a little more research before you publicly critize anyone’s effort to help others.
Sincerely,
Katherine Robinson
Affiliate Photographer and SC Area Coordinator for NILMDTS
I am an area coordinator for NILMDTS, and I must say that at first, I thought it was kind of odd to be asked to pay to volunteer. But right away, the application said if this is a problem, tell them and it will be waived. For me, it was not a problem, and I sent in the money. Now, 5 months later, I feel that it is such an HONOR to do this work, and the ways I have benefitted personally are worth much more than the $25. NILMDTS is run by amazing, giving people, who are there around the clock, to help us in any way that we need. The website is beautiful, and I know I can send people there and the professionalism and compassion we have will be evident; and that photographers and parents alike will find answers and help, and people who genuinely care about what is happening to them. The training manual is invaluable, and worth whatever it cost to produce. I am so proud of this amazing organization. Nobody is getting rich from this. Belonging to NILMDTS “costs” me about 7 cents a day, plus a willingness to get outside myself and to do something very special and loving for families who are hurting. It is a bargain!
Gavin,
There are many many non profit organizations requiring a volunteer fee. These can range from your local zoo, healthcare organizations to volunteering abroad. “Is Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep doing the right thing?” Of course they are.
Dale Kincaid
Affiliate Photographer with NILMDTS
I really am happy that all this discussion is happening. SO many of you that are deeply involved in MILMDTS are pitching in to defend it. You may just about have me convinced 😉
To those who think I’m trying to ruin NILMDTS reputation, you need to pay more attention to what I say. Bringing things like this up is my job, and the discussion started here is exactly what I wanted.
Sandy I’ll be in touch. We can talk further, and perhaps get you on. I may just join yet 🙄
Gavin . .
It’s fantastic to read your reponses to the comments from our devoted NILMDTS volunteers. It’s not often that someone with a forum or agenda of their own is open-minded enough to see beyond their own opinions . . . so thank you for being the kind of person that is willing to do that.
Having Sandy on your show would be good not only for NILMDTS but for your show in general . . . she is a WEALTH of information on successfully running a portrait studio, something that your audience may find just as interesting as this debate about volunteer “fees” . . .
Thanks again Gavin for opening the debate and allowing all of us volunteers to respond passionately about this subject . . . we all believe deeply in this pursuit and want you and the rest of the photography world to know about us, be educated about what we do, why we do it and how it’s done.
Vicki
Area Coordinator – Seattle
Affilliate Photographer NILMDTS
Gavin,
For you to criticize an organization of photographers who can do what you admit that you cannot do, shows a lack of morals and ethics on your part. What’s next, throwing eggs at volunteer fire fighters?
Hello,
I just want to say that the $25 fee was completely worth it. I have looked into other photography charities and none seemed to have the community support that NILMDTS has. I am very grateful for the wonderful staff there and for the training and support. The best part is…it’s not just support for photographers, but for families who have suffered a loss as well. I know that I can send families I help there and they can meet others who have walked a similar hard path.
Dawn Marshall
Honored to be an aAffiliate Photographer with NILMDTS
I have been a volunteer firefighter for 17 years. In those 17 years, I’ve had to spend a lot of money out of pocket for things I needed, including lights and sirens for my car (required by some departments), uniforms and not not mention wear and tear on my vehicles. Why did I do it? So that I could make a difference in my community. Why are photographers asked, but not required, to pay the $25 membership fee? So that they can make a difference in the lives of the families who have lost a child. That’s also why they use their thousands of dollars worth of camera gear and lighting to create a session for the families and not ask for a dime in return. I am proud to be part of NILMDTS and the services they provide.
Kevin P. Moore
NILMDTS Affiliate Photographer
Hi,
I have already noticed that Sandy has responded. I’m not going to echo what has already been stated by the others. I’ve been priviledged to be allowed to work hand in hand with Sandy and Cheryl Haggard, the two founders of this organization, in the forming of this organization to what it is today. I hope that you’ll be talking with Sandy in the very near future. I’m sure you will find that there is nothing at all unusual, or questionable, in regards to this small donation that we ask for. As has been stated, it is not mandatory, but it is appreciated.
If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.
Hi:
Like Kirk, I am not going to echo the previous comments, but I do want to add my 2 cents. In addition to being a photographer (and a proud NILMDTS affiliated Photographer), I am also a physician, and have been involved in countless not-for-profit organizations. In most cases, even many disease-driven organizations that people donate to without hesitation, only a small percentage of your donation actually goes to support the cause. That information is public domain. I personally won’t donate to an organization where my money goes to advertising and constant mailings soliciting more money – I want it to go 100% to support the cause. The donation that NILMDTS requests – does not “demand” (tax deductible) is 100% used to keep NILMDTS alive and well, and it proves its value to us every day. The organization has grown to thousands of photographers, yet there are still times where nobody is available for a session, so we still need more. They field our question, help us with problems and concerns, offer us a shoulder to lean on, and provide training in many different ways. I have learned more practical knowledge about photography and photo editing through NILMDTS than any course, reading or organization I have ever been involved with. Managing this kind of organization takes staff, and some staff must be paid (although there too, much of the staff time is supported through specifically directed donations, and the leadership donates their time in huge hunks). Your discussion seemed to concentrate on the recently produced Training Manual and the website, but I assure you, those are a small part of the costs.
Bottom line: the $25 fee (that can and will be waived if the situation warrants) allows the organization to survive. There is nothing unusual or unethical about that, or anything else these amazing folks do. I appreciate that in your later post you have revisited your position a bit, and I would encourage you to look into it further, and perhaps offer Sandy a reassurance that you don’t REALLY think they are doing anything unethical. I hope you really do support what Sandy and Cheryl have put together, and if so, please tell them.
Thanks for listening.
Roberta E. Sonnino, M.D.
Hi RES Photos
NILMDTS Affiliated Photographer
I am an area coordinator for two hospitals in my area. I think the $25 donation is so minimal to what we do for these families. We spend our time, our vehicles, our parking money, our time editing, our money mailing and creating something that when the family is ready to view. they will have that forever. If we were not here helping there would be a Polaroid camera and you would get two or three crappy shots. I don’t want that and I don’t think the grieving family wants that. They want something to remember their little angel forever in a glorious memory. That is what we provide. And we provide it with patience and sensitivity. One of the families wrote me a thank you note saying,”Dear Cindy, Please forgive the lateness of this sincere note of thanks for your time and talents. We so appreciate your willingness to photography our son, —. You’ll never know how important it it to us to have these memories. In great appreciation The — Family” We make an impact on their lives just by being there. We help them through a tough time. I would do this full time if I could afford it. It is one of those things that has changed my life forever.
In best regards,
Cindy
I too am a volunteer with NILMDTS. The website is extremely helpful to all of us who volunteer. There are loads of information there that help us not only with our involvement with NILMDTS but also things we can apply to our own photography business. The $25 fee is very minimal compared to all they put in to help us make this organization successful. I just received the training manual and in the past, I have requested brochures and lanyards that I received from headquarters at no cost to myself. For all the resources that we have available, the $25 is very much worth it and we can look at it as an extension of our donation to a wonderful organization. NILMDTS needs more exposure so hospitals and parents can receive all the benefits we can offer, not negativity. When I first joined, I was unable to pay the $25 at the time and there was never an issue with that. When I renew, I fully plan to donate the money as they have been a tremendous support to not only me, but so many others.
Gavin,
I read your reply and appreciate your positive attitude toward the responses left by NILMDTS members. Sometimes we as people may jump to conclusions with opinions without thouroughly drafting our thoughts. I understand that it is your job to discuss things and look for people to have opinions and respond. I would only ask that you be a little more careful about what and how you initiate a discussion like this. Although the support level for NILMDTS is higher than it has ever been, it is still a young organization that needs all the support it can get from the ENTIRE photographic community. The intentions and hearts of those involved are seeking one major goal; Give back to our communities with the talents we have been blessed with. As I said before, I appreciate your open-minded approach now and would love to hear about your conversation with Sandy Puc. She is a fantastic human being and rest assured that her heart and soul are 100% in the right place. Now we just need to convert you too. Just Kiddin’ 🙂
Thanks for the discussion,
Andy Rea
Central Coast California
NILMDTS Affiliate Photographer
It is amazing how money changes peoples minds. I am referring to the reactions of ‘some’ people when told of what we do. I have heard the word morbid, until they know that this service is totally free to a grieving family. Then, it is not so morbid after all.
The $25.00 fee, donation, call it what you will, allows us to grow and serve even more families. I recall our first meeting of affiliated photographers in San Antonio, TX. At that meeting, Sandy made the statement that she was considering not having the $25.00 fee, because a few people were put off by the fee, but every person that was there, said NO! Keep charging and offering the waiver, but hire someone to run the program. To this day, I am proud of that decision.
Glad you are ‘seeing’ what we do. IF you could actually see the faces of families when they receive their CD and DVD, you would truly understand even more. By the way, there have been over 70 families served here in the Tulsa, OK area in the past 2 years, 4 month.
Thank you for letting me share.
Loy A. Payne,
CPP, Master Photographer
NILMDTS Affiliate Photographer, Area Coordinator, and Certified Trainer.
I wanted to respond again to all your great comments and give you an update. I looked thru the paperwork on this fee, and while I understand that it can be waived, it’s not made clear on the site, and I can honestly say that when I received the notification of the membership I had no idea it could be waived. I feel that it should be a little more optional, or at least clear it’s not required.
I assure you that I would have no problem paying 25.00, but I am still a bit bothered by the way it’s presented.
That said perhaps I am picking at straws. I have not failed to notice how supportive you’ve all been of the organization, and if you have that much confidence it it I consider that worth something.
Also I have emailed Sandy Puc and invited her on the show to chat about this more, and tell us more about NILMDTS. I have not heard back from her as of this writing, but I’m sure we can work something out and talk about this further on the show.
Gavin
Hello Gavin,
Thank you for the wonderful way you have handled this conversation.
As you can see, our members are very proud of what we do and they really have the biggest hearts. Several people mentioned it here, but until you deliver images to a grieving family, and you literally understand that you have given them the only tangible link to that child, it is hard to understand why someone would want to do this. Over the last three years I have received thousands of letters from parents who are grateful for the images that they have. People who tell me they would go into a burning building to save them. The saddest part is that in addition to the thousands of letters from people we serve, I also received hundreds of letters where grieving families ask “Where were your members, when my baby died?” It is heart breaking to know that we are growing in baby steps and we just can’t reach everyone.
In the last year, I have had a grieving mother stand right in front of me with tears in her eyes and say “I would give anything in the world to have just one image of my child” It is that sadness that drives all of us, to continue to spread the word until no family that want this work, goes without.
I am really excited to chat with you.
I will be contacting you later today, and I hope to answer any questions that you might have.
Peace-
Sandy
Gavin,
It is very common for volunteer organizations to request donations/fees/dues from their members. At my church I am expected to give a tithe to support the church while at the same time I donate my photography services, run the & pay for the church’s website, operate sound & video equipment for services…and my wife gives hundreds of hours of her time to support children’s ministries. I’ve been involved in other ministry activities, including going into prisons, where participants shouldered the administrative costs. Many secular service organization also expect financial support from thier members so what NILMDTS is doing is nothing unusual. What really got me to write a comment is that during the podcast you refered to the organization as a “so called” non-profit. That was pretty strong wording with lots of implications that, IMO, should not have been used without more facts.
Thanks for getting the word out on the podcast about the service. I had not heard of it before and perhaps the publicity can help them recruit more photographers. Although I have photographed the wake of an elderly person for a family I could not handle this task and appreciate those few across the country that do.